How are we serving Black communities in health research?
In this episode of Behind the Genes, we explore Black communities and health research. Our guests discuss why some people feel research is not intended for them, how historical mistrust affects participation, and what needs to change to make research more inclusive, transparent and beneficial for everyone.
Our host, Sharon Jones, is joined by:
- Professor Segun Fatumo - Professor and Chair of Genomic Diversity at Queen Mary's Hospital
- Christella Matoko - Project manager at Genomics England
- Hazel Attua - member of the Participant Panel at Genomics England
We also hear from Mica and Mary, who took part in the Our health, our stories video on YouTube, who share their reflections on why taking part in research matters for Black communities.
As mentioned in the episode, you can also listen to our latest Genomics 101 episode, What is equity in healthcare?, to learn more about what equity means and why it matters in health research and care.
“Engaging in research is bigger than you. It shapes your community, and it shapes the lives of the children coming in the future.”
You can read the transcript below.
Sharon Jones: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to Behind the Genes, the podcast that brings you the stories, research, and innovations shaping the future of genomic healthcare. Today, we're exploring Black communities and health research. Why do some Black people feel that research isn't intended for them? What role does trust play in participation?
Sharon Jones: And what needs to change to improve health outcomes now and in the future? I'm Sharon Jones, and joining me today are Christella Matoko from Genomics England, [00:00:30] Segun Fatumo, Professor and Chair of Genomic Diversity at Queen Mary's Hospital, London, whose work focuses on improving representation and equity in genomic research, and Hazel Attua, who's a member of the Participant Panel at Genomics England.
Sharon Jones: A warm welcome to everyone. So before we dive into these topics, let's start first to try and understand how people perceive research and how that can often influence whether they feel it's something for them. So Christella, I'd love to come to you [00:01:00] first. What comes to mind when you hear the words health research?
Christella: I think when I'm talking about health research, what comes to mind is the opportunities to understand certain health conditions in different communities, and it's about understanding that we can get better treatments, and these treatments can prevent health inequalities. Although I might look at it from this lens, the whole of the Black community might not.
Christella: I have the knowledge of medical care. I work in Genomics England, [00:01:30] so I understand the benefits of, um, health research and how it can improve outcomes within the healthcare. But when you speak about it in terms of the Black community, research doesn't necessarily sit naturally because of all of the historical mistrust that we've, you know, encountered.
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Christella: So for me, good healthcare research should ultimately lead to better outcomes for everyone. And I think when I hear [00:02:00] health research, that's like what I like to think about.
Sharon Jones: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And, and Hazel, like coming to you, does that reflect what you've seen or experienced?
Sharon Jones: You know, do you feel that research feels relevant to Black communities and why do you think some people may feel hesitant in, in taking part?
Hazel: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with Christella. I think it's difficult for people in the Black community to sometimes trust when research comes out [00:02:30] because previously there's been a lot of mistrust around research because there hasn't always been a lot of research within the Black communities.
Hazel: Like when we talk about research, when we talk about, um, for example, with National Genomic Research Library, so when I used to do work with Genomics England-
Christella: Mm.
Hazel: I specifically was, um, working on the National Genomic Research Library within, um, diverse data. [00:03:00] And so our role was to get more diverse data into the National Genomic Research Library.
Hazel: And so for those that don't know what that is, it's like a biobank. And so a biobank is essentially, um, where you help collect samples. So if you've decided to get into research, it's collecting samples, processing samples. So when we decided to do the initiative or when Genomics England decided to do this initiative, I thought it was [00:03:30] amazing because essentially not that much research was done previously for the Black communities.
Hazel: And specifically for sickle cell. So to be able to do this, to be able to help understand the background for sickle cell for the Black communities, it's amazing. To be able to get more treatments and interventions, it's great. But like Christella is saying, like, it's interesting to see different people's [00:04:00] perspectives because, again, the trust and the misconceptions around research is different in everybody's eyes because of the, the lack of research that's been done before.
Hazel: And so the hesitation around it is like, "Why, why is it only coming about now?" Like, "Why are we doing it now?" But that's the thing about the UK, we're such a diverse population, and it's amazing. So research needs to reflect that. [00:04:30]And so I think hopefully going forward, it actually does do that because we do need treatments and interventions that actually reflect the community.
Hazel: Otherwise, we're not gonna get anywhere when it comes to medications, like, health data that actually reflects everyone.
Sharon Jones: So we're gonna hear from Mary now, who's a research nurse and midwife, who shares her thoughts on why people [00:05:00] may be hesitant in taking part in research.
Mary (Clip): Within the Black community, historically, the lack of participation in research stems from a lack of trust. Historically, I guess the best way to put it is why would I go to a party I've never been invited to? And it's trying to get people to understand that narrative has changed. The lack of trust should never be dismissed.
Mary (Clip): It's not a, a myth. It stems from [00:05:30] somewhere. However, there's been so, so, so much change, and I'm hoping that people can see that there are people that really want to make this change for you, for me, for us, for our community. It's so important that, yes, we still hold on to the history of where research is coming from, but we need to paint the picture of the future.
Sharon Jones: So Mary's analogy of being invited to a party you've never been to really gets to the heart of that question around trust. So [00:06:00] Segun, I'd love to bring you in at this point. From your experience working to improve representation in genomic research?
Sharon Jones: Can you explain to listeners why historically Black communities have felt disconnected to research, and what needs to change to make it feel like it's something for the community rather than something that's being done to the Black community?
Segun: So I think we need to get to a point where we acknowledge that there's mistrust.
Segun: So some Black community are fed the old, kind of research that is being done on them and not being done with them. You cannot just show up in a community and start asking for their blood sample or asking for their data, and you just do research on them without, uh, proper community [00:07:00] engagement, without getting them involved, without asking them what are the things that are really very, very important, uh, to them.
Segun: I think, uh, we researchers and also institution and as well as a nation, UK, where we are taking a lead in global genomics, needs to get to a point where we understand that the trust h-has gone, and, uh, we should not expect the Black community to [00:07:30] give us their trust.
Segun: We need to get to a point that where we earn that trust from them, and we're able to do our study on them. So currently in the UK, if you look at some of those, uh, very successful, uh, Black community is really underrepresented. And one of the reason why you hear that is they say that the Black community, they are very hard to reach.
Segun: So they're hard to reach because of the same issue. Community engagement has to [00:08:00] be done in a proper way. Yeah, you need to do research in a way that you go to those Black community and don't expect them to come to you.
Segun: And we see a lot of that during, uh, during COVID. You see that many, uh, Black community were very hesitant to participate in any vaccine. So we need to get to a point where Black community earn our trust.
Sharon Jones: Thank you. Christella, [00:08:30] what do you think about the role that trust plays in deciding whether to participate in research?
Sharon Jones: You, you know, given that you've worked on the Generation Study.
Christella: I think trust has to be earned, and I think Segun has said it perfectly here in terms of working with the community and coming into the community to understand how the community works. This mistrust that we're talking about is not something of today.
Christella: It's something which has been reported on. It's something which we have seen. It's something which has-- it's not a made-up thing. [00:09:00] So when, um, when organisations say Black communities are harder to reach, there is reason for it. That cannot be an excuse not to actually participate with those people in the community to show the difference in which we have made over the years, to understand that we are making changes with the transparency of what we do, you know, creating, um, work which you know where your data is going, because at the end of the day, I'm giving away my [00:09:30] sample.
Christella: I want to know who will have access to that sample, where that sample will go. And until we get to a point where we understand that trust has to be earned, it's always gonna be quite difficult if we think Black community are just gonna participate because there's a research available.
Sharon Jones: And that's a really fair point. And what do you think, given your sort of experience, what do you think helps build that trust in practice?
Christella: I think first of [00:10:00] all, um, not telling and actually going into communities and understanding. So when we talk about the Black community, it's not just a small group of people.
Christella: There are Black Caribbeans, there are Black Africans, there are people from different tribes within different countries. So it's not just a, a one-size-fits-all kind of thing here. Yeah. So it's understanding what you're actually trying to achieve, going into places where the Black community [00:10:30] actually congregate, so whether that is church, whether that's community events, whether that's, uh, Black-based events, actually going in and understanding what is it that you would like us to do to show that we are not the research of, you know, the, the early 19th century?
Christella: What have we done to show that we are progressing in terms of equality? What have we done in terms of how we're using your data? All those things there, it's not about [00:11:00] things being done to the Black community. It's the, it's the partnership, I think, that needs to be at the forefront of what we do now.
Sharon Jones: Yeah. Yeah, and Hazel, coming to you, what do you think enables that participation?
Hazel: Again, 100% agree with Chrisella and Segun that it's all about coming to the community and building that trust because it's, it's difficult, and it's about showing up and not just [00:11:30] showing up once.
Hazel: It's about consistently showing up and consistently building that trust because it's easy to do a workshop or do an engagement once and tell everyone this is what you're trying to achieve. But if you consistently show everyone who you are, what the research that you're trying to do is, it's not just about telling them about the research, it's understanding who they are before you actually trying to gauge them about the research because, like, [00:12:00] it's breaking down their walls and breaking down their barriers.
Hazel: As a Black community, we build up these walls, and I say it as we because we've been let down so many times and-
Hazel: like, I say this from my experience, from times where, from the sickle cell community, for example We had treatments that were brought in, so there was, for example, crizanlizumab and [00:12:30] voxelotor that were brought in, and they were approved in, uh, like, 2023, 2024.
Hazel: But then in 2024, they were then taken away. So early '24, crizanlizumab was then taken off the shelf.
Sharon Jones: Right.
Hazel: And then late September, October, voxelotor was then taken off the shelf, and that's very disheartening for patients with sickle cell. And in the Black community, you can see how also people have been let down [00:13:00] again and again
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Hazel: in not just healthcare, but in general, like the stigma, the discrimination. And so to come in and just ask people to just get involved in research and then done and dusted-
Sharon Jones: Mm-hmm ...
Hazel: it's all about treating them as people before asking them to get involved in research. We have to be treated as people before we get involved in anything.
Hazel: So it's, I think that's how you get [00:13:30] people to be involved and enable them to get involved in research.
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Hazel: It's just treating them as people before anything else.
Sharon Jones: And were there any factors for you that, you know, at first you might not have felt comfortable taking part, and what were sort of deciding factors that made you to get involved and participate?
Hazel: So for me, coming from, like, a personal point of view, 'cause I was on voxelotor, um, for me It, again, it was very disheartening- Mm-hmm ... um, when it was taken off the shelf, [00:14:00] and it was done very quickly overnight.
Sharon Jones: Right.
Hazel: And so for me, it's kind of one of those things where it's like, hmm, what do I do? Do I just not trust the system anymore?
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Hazel: But then, like the flip side to that is, okay, we've had this drug, and it actually worked for me very well. And the look of that is, okay, so we've had this drug. It was amazing. The potential is we'll get more drugs that will be like this. And so [00:14:30] going into the Diverse Data program and thinking about how we approach people to say, "If you can get involved in this study, the likelihood is we actually might get more drugs, more treatments, more interventions that are going to be as amazing as Voxzelator was."
Hazel: Because the likelihood is we've had a drug that was great, and we could actually get more drugs that could be available.
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Hazel: But we need research to do it because at the end of the [00:15:00] day, it's research. It's gonna take time, and the results are always gonna shift up and down. So yes, it can be disheartening, but at the end of the day, we've got to keep trying.
Hazel: Otherwise, if we don't keep trying, then we're not gonna get anywhere.
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Hazel: So I had to ... You have to bite the bullet sometimes, and that's all you can do. So yeah, I think that was what shifted my mindset from not [00:15:30] -from being upset about it to then actually looking at the positives around it.
Sharon Jones: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is a difficult reframe when something that is working so effectively is suddenly kind of shelved, uh, very quickly like that.
Sharon Jones: So changing your mindset couldn't have been, couldn't have been easy. Christella?
Christella: When we're talking about what, what, um, Hazel has just said in terms of something was available to everyone and then it wasn't available, and then that goes again to what I say about [00:16:00] transparency. I think if there was more transparency about what was happening with this particular drug in the community, there would be that, that trust that would have, there would be more of an understanding, there would be more of a, like Hazel's taken the, the stance of, "Okay, I will still trust in the research because I believe something better will come along."
Christella: It's because of also her knowledge within the research. She's been around- she's been around Genomics England, she's been with people that research has really helped. But those in the [00:16:30] community who haven't, they feel disheartened about this, and this is why I say transpare- transparency about what is happening is so important with our community 'cause we-- so we don't feel like things are just being done to us, we actually understand the reasons behind it.
Christella: So for me, there's a few points. It's having people who represent the community actually being clinicians, um, being researchers, you know, leading in these community spaces, the transparency, the [00:17:00] long-term relationship that Hazel was talking about within the community. It's not you come in once and then, you know, you get what you want, and then you leave again.
Christella: It's also sharing the findings, and it's also having a trusted message constantly in order for the Black community to actually participate in these research.
Sharon Jones: Thank you, Christella. So we've got these themes of, like, consistency around trust, around communication, transparency. So Segun, I wanted to come to you now.
Sharon Jones: So why-- if people at [00:17:30] home are still trying to understand why this is important, can you explain to them why representation matters in research, and what happens when communities are not adequately represented in research? What is the impact, and how does that show up?
Segun: So representation matters in research because eventually a decision about our health will need to be made, uh, with this.
Segun: I give you an example of, uh, a, a drug that we have today, medication we have today that is helping to lower cholesterol. So that medication came to be because some African ancestry individuals were involved in a study. So in that study, they found that those African individual, they have, uh, some genetic variation that is helping them to naturally, uh, lower their cholesterol.
Segun: So because they included those African ancestry individuals, so we had, uh, PCSK9 inhibitor where the medication was derived. Now this medication is not only useful for, uh, people of, uh, Black community, but for everybody globally. So helping to lower cholesterol and prevent heart attack.
Segun: So we are doing ourself harm if we continue to exclude some people from, uh, from res- from research. Diagnosis is very important. So some tool for [00:19:00] diagnosis might not be appropriate for an ethnic group or, or ancestry or maybe, for example, in this case, a, a Black community.
Segun: In a research where we get the right diagnosis, uh, the right treatment, uh, for the right people, for the right community. So we cannot just do, uh, all the research on one particular community, and it posts the finding on another community. So representation is really, really very important, not only among, uh, people that participate in research and also in research leadership.
Segun: It is much more easier for Black community, uh, to show interest in research if they see somebody that look like them. So the, the representation has to be at every layer, both the [00:18:42] participant and also at the, at the leadership level.
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Segun: I give an example for, for my study, uh, genetic risk score, in most of the study that we've done, we've seen that where you develop a genetic risk score from one population, and you try to, uh, transfer that, uh, genetic risk score to a Black community, they do very poorly.
Segun: So we need to include-- We need to be able to get to a point where we involve a Black community adequately in studies so that we can [00:20:30] be able to develop, uh, the right genetic risk score to every, every community.
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Segun: So represent-representation is really, is really key. Uh, it's not just about fairness.
Segun: It's about the, you know, accuracy. It's about, uh, you know, precision. It's about better healthcare.
Sharon Jones: Yeah, and it's like you say, it's sort of holistically, it's from participants, but also for people who are working in research that also aids the sort of uptake in participation if you see people who look like you.
Sharon Jones: We're now gonna hear from Mica, who is a mum who took part in a Generation study, and she's gonna talk about why getting involved was so important.
Mica (Clip): I think as a Black woman, as a Black person, put yourself forward because the narrative at the moment is there's not enough research, and we're getting all these sort of doom and gloom headlines about, you know, Black maternal outcomes, Black men and prostate cancer, for example. And I feel like if we as a community don't put ourselves out there and make ourselves available for research, that narrative isn't gonna change.
Sharon Jones: So, Segun, I'd like to come back to you again. On the flip side of that, how can research organisations better involve Black communities? And are there concerns that we've talked [00:20:38] about today that have, uh, been acknowledged and addressed effectively?
Segun: So the first thing is that we need to acknowledge there's a problem.
Sharon Jones: Yeah.
Segun: And we see the Black people are not really, you know, participating in research because of trust. So how do we overcome that? One major thing is relationship or what I call, uh, community engagement. So community engagement is not community consultation. You know, you want to do research, you just [00:22:30] show up at that time you want to do research.
Segun: You know, take people's blood sample and go away. So community engagement starts much more years ahead before... So when you have the right relationship with the community, it's much more easier to be able to do research with them.
Segun: So we have to ensure that, uh, people that are doing the research are also well represented. So we have people that, that look similar, people that understand the community, uh, people that live among the community, so it's much more easier to help, help us to boost the trust. So the third one that people don't talk a lot about is benefit.
Segun: I've done a lot about recruiting people into research [00:21:43] in, in Africa, and there's a benefit sharing component. What we, what we have done in Uganda is that if you have high blood pressure, we have medication. We refer you to, uh, the clinic that is under our own control.
Segun: So we support you with your diabetes, support you with your high blood pressure or whatever thing that you have. If we cannot take care of you, that is where we now refer you to either to a doctor or a general, uh, general hospital. This is [00:25:00] really very important that there's a benefit. And also, uh, recently we've been working with, uh, some, uh, big pharmacy company, and we talk about benefit sharing.
Segun: Uh, for example, if we done some study, uh, we find some drug and med-medication, and the, the company had make millions of, of USD. So what come back to the community? So now we talk about, okay, can you now build an hospital here in this, uh, village? So we have to think about an appropriate benefit sharing also for the Black community in the UK.
Sharon Jones: Thank you. And I know, Christella, you touched upon some of those similar points that Segun made there. What does meaningful community engagement look like for you?
Christella: The benefit sharing is so important because we have to understand there is a problem, first and foremost, okay? And we have to understand the impact of that problem.
Christella: We have to bring solutions for that problem, but we also need to show those benefits in these communities that we're actually trying to engage with. And for me, when I'm talking about engagement, I'm really looking at co-designing, you know, not just consulting and telling them what to do, but the real difference is between being able to actually co-design the studies around Black people, so you can understand the nuances within the, the communities.
Christella: So understanding how to actually engage with these communities is, is really important And I think it's also being honest about the limitations that we have, that we've seen in the past.
Christella: You know? It's not about creating engagement which says you are the knight in shining armour and, and you're here to, you know, put a magic wand and [00:24:00] make everything okay. It's literally being honest about, you know, the preconceptions that people have. You know, what you're trying to achieve in the community, that you're actually trying to benefit the community.
Christella: It's important that those who are creating these studies don't go into a room and assume how these communities work. It's really about understanding the experience of Black people and letting them be experts of their own experience, using that to then find ways to better engage with, with communities.
Sharon Jones: Thank you. And Hazel, is there anything you would like to add?
Hazel: I think Cristella and Segun have hit the nail completely on the head. I think co-design is so important when it comes to engaging with the Black community. And I also think that [00:24:49] when it comes to research, it shouldn't just be about the research.
Hazel: It should be about, like, essentially giving back to the community as well. So e- exactly what Segun and Cristella were saying. So if we're talking about we need to do questionnaires or giving samples, the community, whoever is, whoever this research is for, should be able to [00:28:30] see results from this. It shouldn't just be a couple of years down the line they still don't know what is coming from this research.
Hazel: Because sometimes we do research and people don't understand what's happened to, to this research, and sometimes that is off-putting to people.
Sharon Jones: Thanks, Hazel, and we're gonna hear again from Mica, who captures that idea so powerfully
Mica (Clip): The research isn't for the NHS, it isn't for any medical institution, it's not for the government. It's for our community. We're at the heart of that research, and, like, we've got a chance to do something about it, and if you're not gonna put yourself out there, then who else is going to?
Sharon Jones: So, Segun, how can we ensure the future of healthcare innovations benefit everybody and they don't deepen health inequalities?
Segun: I would say that, so what is the benefit of, uh, innovation, if it does not benefit everyone, particularly people that need it the most? Uh, give an example, maybe Hazel will know a lot about this.
Segun: So now we have a sickle cell gene therapy. Of course, a few people have benefited, so this probably costs about, uh, millions of USD for one person. This is a great innovation, but who can benefit from it? It's too expensive. No-nobody's able to afford that. So we need to get a point where, so the so-called innovation can get to the right people, people that actually need it, and it's actually cost-effective.
Segun: In my own, uh, domain of work, we're trying to develop a new, uh, gene-genomic test or genetic risk score. So what we have seen from the data that is currently available is that, you know, when you develop this, the score from one particular population, it doesn't transfer to other population. So it-- the genetic testing, uh, is a great innovation, but it doesn't, it doesn't really do well in the, in the Black community.
Segun: So I think we should have to think much more at the beginning of innovation, uh, whether who is this innovation being prepared for? Who is going to benefit from this innovation? If innovation is not gonna, uh, benefit people that need it most, it doesn't really make any sense.
Sharon Jones: That's a good point. And Christella, you also had an example of what happens when communities are not adequately represented in research.
Christella: Yeah. So recently, um, in the NHS, they've started to, um, test for [00:27:45] a specific enzyme, which is, which is found in the Black community, um, for cancer patients going through chemotherapy. Originally, there were four enzyme that they tested for, um, in the genes, and they found that there's actually a fifth one which affects Black people within the community.
Christella: And it's so important that this happened because Black patients were having, you know, severe side effects to the chemotherapy, and some patients unfortunately passed away due to this particular enzyme. So understanding that our genes do have variants in it and some, as Segun said, some things which work in one community will not always work, um, in a different community.
Christella: So now before anyone undergoes a chemotherapy, the cancer patients across England undergo genetic testing, which can then lead into a change of treatment and reduce adverse, um, side effects for the chemo. Now that the NHS can test for this, it's gonna bring better outcomes to those in the Black community going through chemotherapy.
Christella: We all know chemotherapy is hard enough to go through, so making it a little bit better for those in our community that are going through it is so important, and that's why we need to be part of this research, 'cause without us, they won't know what's best for us.
Sharon Jones: Thank you for sharing that. And if you'd like to understand more about equity, please listen to our Explainer podcast, What Is Equity?
Sharon Jones: So let's hear from Mary with a message she'd like listeners to leave with today.
Mary (Clip): Thinking about my experiences, I would love listeners to take away the fact that engaging in research is bigger than you. It shapes your community, and it shapes the lives of the children coming in the future. Black communities, we need to know our baseline.
Mary (Clip): We need to know where we are starting. It's bigger than us. My engagement helps the granddaughter I don't have, and that's what I need people to know.
Sharon Jones: And given what Mary said, I'd like to ask you all, what message would you [00:29:34] like to leave for listeners who are interested in learning about research? I'll come to Christella first .
Christella: I think first of all, we have to acknowledge that the questions and the hesitations within the community are very valid, and we have to understand that this makes sense given the history of research.
Christella: But I would love listeners to be left with the knowledge that history shouldn't be the final word of our relationship with research. We ask the hard questions that we need to ask and invite those who need to also benefit from this research. And like Mary said, "I'm helping my grandchild that I don't even have yet."
Christella: And I think that's how we need to look at it. It's not so much just about us, but it's the future generation. It's about having better outcomes for each and every one of us, and that includes the Black community. So help shape further research, and medicine will actually benefit us in the future.
Sharon Jones: Hazel, what message would you like to leave listeners today?
Hazel: I think going into research can sometimes be hard. However, I do think research is incredibly important, [00:31:14] especially for the younger generation.
Hazel: So I do think that we should get involved.
Sharon Jones: Thank you. And Segun?
Segun: Yeah, I would like to, uh, recall what, uh, Christella was saying, uh, particularly saying that for everybody, uh, listening to me right now, if you are invited to participate in the research, please participate, you know.
Segun: Ask the right question, "What is the research for?" And, uh, how does it benefit you? Maybe not you directly, maybe your children or maybe your grandchildren. Everyone should remember that, uh, so research is ultimately for the people, for better healthcare.
Segun: So our contribution really matter. So you're contributing your sample really matter and can change, uh, somebody's life, can change generation. Every participant has something valuable, which is really key. So I would encourage all the listener to participate in research if you are invited.
Segun: Thank you.
Sharon Jones: I think that's a very salient point. We'll wrap up there. We've covered a lot today, from trust to participation and what is needed to change to ensure that healthcare is for everyone. A huge thank you to our guests, Christella, Segun, and Hazel, for joining me today as we discussed how Black communities are being served in health research.
Sharon Jones: If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to hear more, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host, Sharon Jones, and Behind the Jeans is produced by Deanna Barac, Sophie McLachlan, Katie Revell, Adam Wavy, and Patrick Wallace at Bespoken Media.
Sharon Jones: Thank you for listening.
